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I can't help but think that I have to be doing something wrong. I… - Silicon Rose [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
Silicon Rose

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[Oct. 25th, 2008|10:22 am]
Silicon Rose
[Current Mood |thoughtfulthoughtful]

I can't help but think that I have to be doing something wrong. I know rogues are strikers, but, I don't know, I'd kind of gotten the impression they were crappy strikers. Last night, I was turning out an awesome level of damage, easily beating out the average damage per round of the ranger.

I almost exclusively use Sly Flourish. This is a Dex vs. AC power which does 1[W] + Dex mod + Cha mod damage. I'm playing a drow which has +2 Dex, +2 Cha, so my Dex is 18 and my Cha is 16, resulting in modifiers of +4 and +3 respectively. Thus, my minimum damage on Sly Flourish is 8. One of the other players in my group kept bothering me to use Trick Strike, which is Dex vs. AC, for 3[W] + Dex. I'm using a dagger, so my W is 1d4. I can actually do less damage using Trick Strike than Sly Flourish, and it only increases my max damage by 5. Trick Strike's still useful, as it can be used to slide the enemy around, but for damage, I might as well just use Sly Flourish, which is at-will.

I also had combat advantage on over half the rounds. Between Cloud of Darkness/Darkfire (both of which grant combat advantage when used correctly), and an almost fanatic attention to flanking, it was rare that I didn't have combat advantage on the enemy. It helped that our wizard was an illusionist, who helpfully knocked things prone for me, and our other striker was also melee, thus helping me flank. However, our swordmage kept teleporting me into the worst damn positions.

As for my to-hit, I have a Dex mod of +4, the proficiency mod of +3 for daggers, +1 for the rogue weapon talent (with daggers), giving me a +8 flat for normal attacks, and a whopping +10 for attacks with combat advantage. And if I switch out to shuriken, I have +4 and +3, giving me +7. Unfortunately, it's harder to get combat advantage at range, so I'm overall less likely to hit, but I can Sly Flourish pretty decently at range as well.

I do realize that we were in a very good situation, mostly outdoors, lots of free room to wander around. It would have been harder indoors, where I'd have had to worry more about attacks of opportunity... but even so, I'm an artful dodger build, so my AC is 19 vs. attacks of opportunity, which isn't bad at all.

But seriously, was I doing something wrong, or very, very right?

From: umiushi
2008-10-26 12:01 am (UTC)

Question on damage

I haven't read the 4th edition rules yet, so I might be parsing this incorrectly.

If I'm reading your post right, your damage with a dagger for Sly Flourish is 1d4 + 3 +4, or 8-11, and your damage for Trick Strike is 3d4 + 4 or 7-16. It seems to me that Trick Strike then does 11.5 average damage vs. 9.5 for Sly Flourish, or put another way, half the time it will do more than the maximum damage for Sly Flourish.
At the same time, the chance of doing minimum damage (8) for Sly Flourish is 25%. The chance of doing 7 or 8 points of damage for Trick Strike is only 6.25%. The chance of actually doing only 7 points of damage is less than 2%.
It I'm reading that correctly, Sly Flourish doesn't really stand up in the damage arena, so is there something I'm missing, or some sort of catch? You mentioned that it's "at-will." I take it that Trick Strike isn't?

How much damage is the ranger dishing out?
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2008-10-26 04:37 am (UTC)

Re: Question on damage

Trick Strike is a daily power, so I can only use it once between extended rests. That means about once every three encounters in practice. Sly Flourish is at-will, so I can use it every round of combat of every one of those encounters if that was what I wanted.

The additional benefit to Trick Strike is that it allows me to slide the enemy 1 space every time I hit them, including the first hit with Trick Strike (if I hit), and continuing until the end of the encounter. I hold Trick Strike because I might need it later, for dancing enemies around the battlefield.

Trick Strike also becomes a better deal when I'm using shuriken, as they do 1d6 damage per [W], thus increasing my max damage by six. However, I don't get the +1 to attack with shuriken, so I'm slightly less likely to hit.

I dunno, I think she maxed around 16? If I have combat advantage, I get the rogue's sneak attack, which is +2d6 additional damage. I feel like I ended up, on average, higher than 20 damage on most of my attacks, and I think I hit more often. Part of that may be that, since having combat advantage actually activates one of my powers I really, really aim for it, while it "just" gives her a +2 bonus to hit?
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From: umiushi
2008-10-26 07:30 am (UTC)

Re: Question on damage

How do you get combat advantage? In 3rd edition, the rogue sneak attack could be used in any situation where the opponent was denied a dexterity bonus to AC. The was usually due to one of three conditions: getting caught flat-footed from surprise; being paralyzed; or from being flanked in melee. That seemed to happen only about once every other combat, for my group.

I understand the situation with Trick Strike a little better, now that I know it's only once per day.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2008-10-26 04:13 pm (UTC)

Re: Question on damage

Rogues are strikers in 4th ed, so they're specifically designed to cause damage. Combat advantage isn't trivial to get, but it's not exceptionally hard, either. Rogues get combat advantage in the first round against enemies who haven't acted yet, and then there's the normal ways to get combat advantage: flanking or inflicting any of a whole host of status effects (dazed, prone, blinded, etc.). There are also a bunch of rules about combat advantage, like that if a character or enemy runs, they grant combat advantage to all enemies until the beginning of their next turn, and there's a feat, Wintertouched, that grants you combat advantage against enemies vulnerable to cold when you use a power with the cold keyword.

4th ed is much more focused on status effects, bonuses, and negatives than any prior version of D&D.
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[User Picture]From: benabik
2008-10-26 05:54 pm (UTC)
From what I remember (and this is also mostly theory and not experience), the Rogue does better damage but is designed to be right in their faces. The Ranger does better damage than most of the other classes, but is beat by the Rogue. The advantage of the Ranger is that they do it from over there.

My Warlock also was happily dishing out damage when we played 4e. The warlock trades a little bit of damage for range and status ailments.
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