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You know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what on earth… - Silicon Rose [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
Silicon Rose

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[May. 30th, 2005|11:53 am]
Silicon Rose
[Current Mood |thoughtfulthoughtful]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what on earth the Jedi Council was smoking when they thought "bring balance to the Force" meant anything but bad things.

I guess a significant part of that could just be that I already knew what happened. But seriously. Anger. Rage. Pain. Fear. Naw, he'll be an upstanding good Jedi. Just give him a chance.

Of course, if he was prophesized to bring balance to the Force, the Jedi were probably already screwed. The Star Wars universe is not one where prophesies are meant to provide guidence to the world so they can avoid the horrible events depicted therein. I can't think of a single prophetic vision which didn't come true. There also aren't all that many prophesies, and they seem to be concentrated in the prequel trilogy.

I don't think I've ever thought before about characterizing universes into ones where prohecies always come true and those in which they can be changed or avoided. That makes me wonder if I could break that rule somehow, and still make it a good and believable story?

I should really try to get some writing done today.
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: dragonoflife
2005-05-30 07:32 pm (UTC)
It did bring a very good balance balance to the Force, it just took forever and resulted in the Order being almost entirely wiped out.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-30 08:18 pm (UTC)
Oh, yeah, I won't argue with what the prophecy DID. It's just, the Council didn't seem to understand that the prophecy could mean he'd do BAD things (to them) until the third movie.
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[User Picture]From: dragonoflife
2005-05-30 08:39 pm (UTC)
"We are the Jedi. The Force is on our side."
"Only if we're on *its* side."
"Heretic!"
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 01:08 am (UTC)
Good point, actually. If Anakin's was a divine^H^H^H^H^H^H Force-inspired birth, then the Force had it out for the Jedi. Funny, when you think about it.

I wonder what the Force was 'thinking'?
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[User Picture]From: dragonoflife
2005-05-31 03:56 am (UTC)
I'd tell you here, but it's a spoiler.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 06:35 am (UTC)
Spoiler for what?
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[User Picture]From: dragonoflife
2005-05-31 10:19 am (UTC)
Uh, the movie? Just in case someone reading *hasn't* seen it yet, you know.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 02:35 pm (UTC)
Mmm... I guess, but it helps that most people who care to see it already know basically what happens. ^^ You're right, I should be more careful.
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[User Picture]From: benabik
2005-05-30 08:39 pm (UTC)
Several of my friends brought up interesting points... he did bring balance. And quickly.

Before Anakin: Lots of Jedi vs. 2 Sith
After Vader: 2 Jedi vs. 2 Sith.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 01:10 am (UTC)
Oh yeah, he certainly brought balance. No confusion there. It's just, how did the Jedi not see it? They're supposed to be quite wise people.

Meh, I'm probably thinking too directly - they may have been thinking there was some other imbalance, possibly not even taking into account the one between the Jedi and the Sith.
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[User Picture]From: benabik
2005-05-31 02:13 am (UTC)
From several comments in Eps 1 & 2, the dark side actually had a huge influence over the galaxy... Probibly the touch of Palpatine's plots. So eventually Anakin was responcible for removing that... but only much much later.
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[User Picture]From: tlttlotd
2005-05-31 02:39 am (UTC)
One can be wise and still blind to what's going on. Enlightenment doesn't mean that you know what's going on.
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[User Picture]From: tlttlotd
2005-05-31 02:38 am (UTC)
The Jedi had been ascendent for.. how long? Several hundred to several thousand years? By the time Episode 1 started, they were being sent in to strongarm planets into going with the Senate. That seems pretty corrupt to me, if not well on its way there. The dark side had been repressed for about as long. The universe/force was trying to return to balance, so things get very bad very fast. The thing about imbalance is that when it's too far to one side or the other, some equally radical things have to happen on the opposite side of the spectrum to even things out.

The balance was restored with the fall of Anakin.
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[User Picture]From: ketsugami
2005-05-31 02:50 am (UTC)
Not every prophecy comes true -- remember that in the original trilogy, the Emperor uses the Force to foresee his own future, but doesn't pick up on his downfall.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 03:19 am (UTC)
Hmm, I completely forgot/didn't realize that.
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From: umiushi
2005-05-31 03:15 am (UTC)
When you say "break that rule" are you talking about a story where a universe has both kinds of prophecies? It seems to me that stories have room for lots of different types of prophecy. What about universes where prophecies are allowed to be fallible? Put in another way, how would a character in a story be able to know whether a prophecy handed down to him or her was one based on absolute knowledge of the future, a forecast based on some form of probability or conditionals, outright lies, or random delusional guesses?

Speaking of Star Wars, didn't Palpatine mention that Darth Plagueis could influence the midichlorians and cause them to create life? Except for the fact that Lucas specifically stated that the force created Annakin, it seems amusing to think that the Jedi could stumble upon some Sith breeding experiment and mistake that for their beloved prophecy.
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 03:19 am (UTC)
Yes, I am speaking of a universe with both kinds. ^^ And I've got an idea... too bad I'm swamped with other stories right now. And as for universes where prophecies are infalliable, we do have the Sword of Truth series for that - they consider prophecies extremely dangerous because they can fork, and depending on which way that fork goes, it can validate or invalidate lines of prophecies. And, only a prophet can really understand a prophecy. The words are often misleading.

Yep, and I thought of that when I was watching it. ^^ That would have been very interesting.
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[User Picture]From: dragonoflife
2005-05-31 10:21 am (UTC)
Aaaand down here it gets spoiled, whee. ^.^ Of course, even a specific statement like that has its loopholes and so forth.

As for the Sword of Truth books, it's too bad it didn't include a prophecy in the first book to warn us. "Should you never pick up a book in this series again, you will think it amazing. Should you read past book 3, you shall come to believe it the biggest steaming pile of crap upon your bookshelf."
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[User Picture]From: siliconrose
2005-05-31 02:34 pm (UTC)
Hey, it's not that bad. ^^
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[User Picture]From: dragonoflife
2005-06-01 06:06 am (UTC)
Naked Empire was THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER READ.
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[User Picture]From: harinezumi
2005-06-01 03:17 pm (UTC)
That title is just wrong, especially when mentioned in a Star Wars context. ^^;
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[User Picture]From: froborr
2005-05-31 11:49 pm (UTC)

I hate the Jedi

*spoilers ensue*
Well... he was prophesied, you might recall, to bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith. So you can see how the Jedi might assume those are the same thing, and that it was therefore a good thing for them. But it wasn't the same thing, and what Vader did proceeded in three stages.

The following follows on from ideas proposed by Howard Taylor:

Point one: The Jedi are emotional cripples. Taken from all family ties at an early age, they are denied all access to love, real friendship, and taught to suppress all anger and pain, sublimating all of that into insufferable superiority and blind zealotry. Hipocrisy is rampant among them: Yoda, for example, preaches nonviolence and caution, but smacks around guards and kills clone troopers with abandon. They follow the usual rule of theocrats: "When Sith kill people without pausing to consider, it's murder. When Jedi kill people without pausing to consider, it's justice." Finally, they use mind control regularly, which I would argue is a crime of violence akin to rape.

Point two: The Sith are worse. Where the Jedi are merely crippled and cold, the Sith are violent, destructive, self-centered psychopaths. They're much more honest then the Jedi, but also violent, manipulative, and sadistic.

So, here are the three stages of Vader fulfilling the prophecy.

Stage one: As Benabik pointed out, he brought balance to the force by exterminating all but two Jedi. However, most of the work involved was done by clone troopers. It is difficult to argue that Vader alone did it.

Stage two: He killed himself and the Emperor, destroying the Sith. Without either of them to carry on the knowledge, we can presume that the Sith cease to exist after Jedi

Stage three: He was responsible for Luke, who is neither an emotional cripple nor a psychopath. Luke is able to resist the Emperor's temptations, turning from the Sith path, but he also rejects Jedi ways when he goes to rescue his friends on Cloud City, and again when he tries to turn Vader back to the light side against Yoda's warnings. Had Anakin not become Vader, Luke would have been raised by the Jedi, and become another arrogant, mealy-mouthed, self-serving hypocrit. However, he was instead raised as part of a loving family -- a family he refused to leave until it was destroyed -- and is thus much closer than any Jedi to actual sanity. Luke's students will call themselves Jedi, but their attitudes and beliefs will be far closer to the human condition than the austere, corrupt priesthood of the Old Republic. He is far from perfect (he still uses mind control at least once), but he's a lot better than Yoda or Mace Windu.
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